It gives me some hope for the future, and enhances my understanding of struggles Ive dealt or been dealing with. Even though we know our solar system is heliocentric, the geocentric model is still meaningful insofar as it reflects the sky as we see it from Earth. This would make the sidereal zodiac the grander circle of the Other, since the stars are irregularly scattered with chaotic trajectories, making sense with my theory of the sidereal zodiac representing whats archetypally incidental and ephemeral for a particular time and place. hobbies, I don't usually watch astrology videos. highly recommend him. It was probably one of the most therapeutic self-care things I have. Ive been pondering this because ive been experimenting with both chart designs for both natal interpretations and for timing life events. Since the Earth-Sun relationship is very stable, leading to a tropical zodiac with definitive beginnings and endings that can remain constant for as long as the Earth spins, so too does it represent things which are archetypally unchanging or eternal about life on Earth. Because the tropical system is a Solar-based system the commonly held opinion is that the tropical system is better at describing the personality and psychological patterns. Imagine the Earth is like a ship in an ocean. Here is Part 1 of a live video presentation on the topic of Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs in Vedic Astrology: Sidereal or Tropical Zodiac in Vedic Astrology. helpful insights into the topics I expressed my curiosity about. It is rare in life to meet someone with a keen intellect, sensitive interpersonal communication, a wellspring of. I was shy, caring, self-defensive. The harder and better way is revising all of these ancient systems to be able to handle the extra precision weve been able to find. interpretations is A-MAZ-ING! READ SOMETHING ELSE. August 11 - September 17 Virgo: August 24 - September 22: September 17 - October 18: September 17 - October 30 Libra: September 23 - October 23: October 18 - November 17: I personally think Vedic Astrology is the big winner because they have had the longest to breathe life into their creation. RT @saturnsscepter: That Tropical Virgo to Sidereal Leo switch will never click in my birth chart lmaooo I've been looking at that shit for 10 years now waiting to feel it I see it in so many other Sidereal Leos but never in myself like not even a little bit. If you accept there are objective astrological correlations but you dont want to abandon the notion of a zodiac, we have these remaining options: But then comes an arguably trickier question: If the zodiacs have different meanings, what could they be? Is the Sun more important, or are the stars? The Difference Between Tropical and Sidereal Astrology For example, if the Ascendant is 4 degrees Leo, then the 1st house begins at 0 degrees Leo, the 2nd house is calculated as 0 degrees Virgo, the 3rd, 0 degrees Libra, and . I really like his timing techniques. It wouldnt invalidate practice of sidereal astrology because the findings made with it would relate to whats archetypally incidental. Western astrology mostly uses the tropical zodiac, in which 0 Aries is fixed at the vernal point. This is why some argue that your Vedic chart can be so accurate for prediction with actual events on Earth and your Western chart is better for describing the psychological effects the actual events may have on your psyche. This makes accurate measurements meaningless and arbitrary, because meaning can be derived from any chart regardless of if its the right one or not, as long as its the one you saw in that moment. Thank you! This is why I think Western astrology makes sense even though it uses a symbolic zodiac. This reminds me in some ways of the debate in music over fixed do and movable do. Then again, im just a hobbyist so what do I know? The difference between Vedic or Sidereal astrology and Tropical or Western astrology comes from different ecliptic coordinates. The Moon and Sun rule the signs where the Sun is in the hottest part of the year, Saturn rules the signs where the Sun is in the coldest part of the year, etc. It is professional astrologer Patrick Watson who does his job best. The main difference that tropical has from the sidereal is a 24-degree discrepancy that affects the former's calculation of the celestial bodies. My opinion here, is that the sidereal zodiac (and the whole house system) provides us an accurate, albeit not precise view of the cosmos. The Sun is in Leo from approximately July 23th to August 22nd. A sidereal ephemeris will correspond to the positions of the planets as recognized by modern astronomy. I have never resonated with my astrology chart as much as I do now. In 1954 the Lahiri ayanamsha was given the stamp of approval by the government of India. Having a rectification chart done with Patrick availed me the opportunity to connect deeply with the aspects of my. Lets face it were basically creatures of habit. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the Sidereal Zodiac and when does it make sense to use the sidereal model instead of the Tropical Zodiac?. From what we can see, the sidereal zodiac is considered fixed because the sky today looks remarkably similar to the one from 2000 years ago. The actual point in space that is Leo 22 in 1951 in the tropical zodiac will be Leo 23 in the tropical Zodiac in 2023. I was at first a little nervous to do so, since this is not something I do often, and I didnt really know what to expect, but I found that Each time a star enters or leaves a tropical sign, the zodiacal image would be updated. So I learned physics/metaphysics from Ken Wheeler. Roughly 2000 years ago, tropical Aries aligned with sidereal Aries, and while ancient astrologers were to some degree aware of precession, they didnt concern themselves with their differences since they were still small in their own time. The September equinox is 0 Libra. The Vedic system is often considered to be better at describing the soul nature and predicting actual events because its tied to the actual fixed constellations. I highly recommend Patrick. Labels: aquarius, aries, cancer, capricorn, gemini, leo, libra, pisces, sagittarius, scorpio, Sidereal Dates, taurus, Tropical Dates, virgo 14 March, 2010 Whenever we look at the those horoscope columns in newspapers which people predictable do for fun, they see their dates and come to conclusion as to what their sun sign or zodiac sign (for . As an example, as per the Western - Tropical zodiac, a person born on September 7 is a Virgo. Obtain a copy of your Western chart, if you dont have one already. The Leo keyphrase is I WILL. It should be envisioned and understood as a solar zodiac, a construct explicitly derived from the Earth-Sun relationship and distinct from stars. I just recently started studying my sidereal chart after strongly identifying with my tropical for most of my (young) life. The sidereal zodiac is not symbolic but is oriented to an observable phenomenon. My consultation went really well. Western astrologers prefer to line up the planets in the zodiac according to the seasons, whereas Vedic astrologers prefer to orient them to the fixed stars. My Progressed Amaravella Virgo 6 11' This never changes, except that due to axial precession, each equinox and solstice appears to shift backward 1 degree every 72 years, relative to the stars. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! Optional: Various Ayanamsas. The December solstice is 0 Capricorn. Be sure to seek advice from Patrick Watson! By my purchase of this horary service I acknowledge and agree to the following terms and conditions: 1) I do not hold Patrick Watson to be legally liable for any circumstances or consequences arising from his analysis of my question. The obvious reason why emphasizing one sign is limited is that there are so many potential configurations from which to interpret the same descriptive traits. The Tropical Zodiac is based on the seasons in the Northern Hemisphere and is the system used in Western Astrology. This is tricky because it would mean that on a theoretical basis they would have to be formally severed, and it may mean past results with each zodiac might be put into a different context, but it wouldnt necessarily make either wrong and would be far less disruptive than invalidating either zodiac. This is clearly the better option. Perhaps like the lunar Nodes, these could be seen as access points to the Earthly sphere. Both systems, after all, are looking at the same phenomenon of the planets moving through the sky, but from different vantage points. This is why I think tropical refers to things which will always be true about the eternally recurring rhythm and phases of life on Earth, whereas sidereal refers to things which are only true about this particular era for our species. SIDEREAL: Leo svamsha, its 12th is Cancer. What does this say about what they could mean? But its an illusion. Predictive astrologers too. If it's Cancer 28 in the sidereal zodiac in 1951, it will still be Cancer 28 in 2023. No doubt it will positively impact future astrological thinking. Tropical Virgo is often type casted as a Perfectionist But truth be told, Sidereal Virgo could care less about perfectionism! 7 Tropical Balance will like to pair and agree with anyone, under the "rule of a seducing Venus . Sidereal is more like fixed do, in that the order and starting point never change, regardless of the key. He's a really cool guy with great character. Tropical date Sidereal Date Cyril Fagan; Leo: . Vedic Astrology has to its credit about seven thousand years and millions of believers pouring conscious energy into the mold formed of its mythology. These answers are mesmerising but providing little context on knowing your personal self in an individual level, if not making it more confusing. super impressed and happy with the reading. Its not too doom and gloom nor over the top unrealistic. The most common one is Lahiri. Tropical date. They have the same names as sidereal signs because they used to coincide, but to be properly distinguished they should have different names. On January 1st 1950 the difference was 23 degrees 09 minutes. Heres a framework to be my base with my tropical chart, and heres the variances that may make my life, experiences, lessons, etc. If youre a sidereal astrologer, then go right ahead with the lion analogies, but just keep in mind that the constellation has an expiration date. Basically, I had all the makeups of a Cancer rising. Therefore, the current mathematical difference between the two systems is about 24 degrees. This article explains the astronomical phenomena to which these 'risings' and 'settings' refer (distinct from merely crossing the eastern or western horizon); it examines the various methods by which one can calculate the dates for these phenomena; and it explores the problems . Another important point is - 3,000 yrs. The sidereal zodiac is already divided into 27 nakshatras, which are appropriately named after celestial beings. I can share more of this if youd like. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Another response is to render the question irrelevant by foregoing the cultural constructs of zodiacs altogether, focusing instead just on planetary geometry. I continue to read your work with interest. I love it! His ability to discern multiple levels of information and layer them within the context of the the individual is amazing. We may have to revisit our view of constellations period. The difference is the tropical system is based on a fixed astrological map of the stars as they were around 0 AD. Gemini: June 20 to July 16. The only way these could logically be integrated with the sidereal zodiac is if sidereal Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces assumed more cardinal characteristics since that is where the Sun is at the beginning of the seasons sidereally. Pluto in Leo represents those haughty and piously fraudulent attitudes which wonder why the peasants don't eat cake when there is a shortage of bread." (Firebrace, Spica, April, 1966.) The tropical zodiac needs to solve its hemisphere problem. In the same way that astronomers decide the names of new planets and how meteorologists decide the names of new hurricanes, astrologers could decide on the new cultural image reflected in those stars. People who use astrology for stocks do NOT use tropical. You wont be disappointed! Without the aid of telescopes or modern technology they calculated that the orientation of the equinoxes to the fixed stars precedes or moves backwards through the zodiac at a rate of about 50.3 seconds per year, or about 1 degree every 72 years. Its the planet ruling the sign which is the basis for the image, not the other way around. They can both be right because they are about different things., Those new names for the signs are great! Just as the stars are irregularly scattered about, so would the sidereal zodiac reflect the irregularity of the ocean/weather/climate. An astonishing thing to contemplate is that the ancient Vedic rishis were aware of the fact that the earth changes its tilt or wobbles on its axis. And as others have said, he has a great sense of humor; in my opinion, the value of that cannot be overstated! In order to get some more perspective on this question, were going to have to zoom out in time and space to go beyond the Ptolemaic universe to see whats really going on. Date of Birth. Tropical is more akin to a movable do, in that the order stays the same even though the starting point can change. He asked great questions and explained why he saw things the way he did. :]. I've appreciated his bluntness and honesty regarding unfavorable placements, his insight into the areas of life in which they fall and his imput on the brighter side of my chart. Whether you rotate the base to get your sidereal Vedic chart or the tropical Western the clock still works at least symbolically if not literally because its based on a true fundamental pattern. Leo Virgo Libra Scorpio Sagittarius Capricorn Aquarius Pisces: Apr 14 May 13 Jun 15 Jul 15 Aug 16 Sep 16 Oct 16 Nov 15 Dec 15 Jan 14 Feb 13 Mar 13: May . It's not as confusing as it may seem to understand why. Also he's as funny as his blogs! However, even thousands of years into the future, the tropical zodiac will remain tied to the Earths relationship to the Sun. I guess my Tropical Sun Sign (Libra) is somewhat accurate, but it also says that I'm charismatic, outgoing, extroverted, and flirty, which is far from the truth. The time flew by, spend the extra $ for a longer consult! An easy way to do this in your head, if the planet's degrees are less than 23 degrees in any given sign, is to add 7 degrees and go back a sign. And since the Sidereal zodiac more closely follows the movement of the stars which, as youve pointed out, will not even hold their constellations in the long run, that it would make more sense to alter the Sidereal. Sidereal Zodiac for the lunar nakshatras. I know there are some divisions within the community of sidereal astrologers on this topic, and I am not a siderealist, but as an outsider there seems to be a pretty clear solution to all the different anayamsas out there. On a much longer timeframe, over the course of millennia, the position of stars will have appreciably changed and 0 Aries would no longer be determinable from the constellations because for all practical purposes the constellation of Aries would no longer exist. Patrick was professional, funny, and sensitive to the topics of our discussion. Its hard to be clear and objective when we feel threatened in any way and its easy to dismiss a seemingly opposing viewpoint to save having to expand out of our comfort zones. Keep up the great work! Patrick is not just skilled at chart interpretation; he thinks like a scientist, continually working out techniques that emerged from recent translations, which, in my opinion, always contain an interpretive dimension, particularly 2,000 years beyond the writing of the text and the culture within which the text was produced. Additionally, it bases on how we see the stars from here on earth, rather than on their fixed positions in the heavens. 2) Timing recommendations provided by this electional service are based on Patrick Watsons opinion of astrological factors and are not guarantees of desired results, and are not intended to contradict, supersede or be in any way a substitute for the advice of qualified professionals in other fields such as medicine, law or finance, etc. . ever-expanding knowledge, and a hilarious sense of humor. Its also great to be forewarned about issues that may arise when you are uncertain about how the course of events may unfold. The ayanamsha will be 180 degrees 0 minutes!! Not only was the consultation both fun and interesting but Patricks feedback for the questions I asked him was invaluable. I am not well versed with Indian Astrology as I am with Tropical Astrology. Ayana means precession and amsha means part or portion. The term refers to the number degrees difference between the Spring Equinox and the 1st degree of Aries. That Tropical Virgo to Sidereal Leo switch will never click in my birth chart lmaooo I've been looking at that shit for 10 years now waiting to feel it I see it in so many other Sidereal Leos but never in myself like not even a little bit. Western astrology is historically based on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos (2nd century CE), which in turn was a continuation of Hellenistic and ultimately Babylonian traditions.. Western astrology is largely horoscopic, that is, it is a form of divination based on the construction of a horoscope for an exact moment, such as . On Thursday, September 17, 2020, at 7:00 AM (EST), there will be a "Super New Moon" in the constellation sign of "Virgo" in the Western/Tropical Zodiac and in Leo in the Sidereal/Vedic Zodiac. The tropical zodiac, therefore, is a symbolic system based on the Sun/Earth relationship and is oriented to the seasons. Whilst this isn't a debate of whether one is "better" or "more accurate" than the other, there are some significant differences between the two that should be taken into account. If the Earths rotation and the consequent regularity of day and night is the circle of the Same, and the Earth-Sun relationship is the basis for the tropical zodiac, then perhaps the tropical zodiac could be considered a grander circle of the Same. Its just astronomical fact. This was an interesting, insightful reading with one of todays leading practitioners of ancient Hellenistic Astrology. Libra: November 4 to November 22. Astrology Skeptic: The tropical and sidereal zodiacs have drifted about 24 degrees apart. The tropical zodiac would need new names for its signs to properly differentiate itself from constellations and the sidereal zodiac. The sidereal zodiac needs an unambiguous anchor. Here is Part 2 - which includes some very helpful animations. It is the age just coming out of The Garden, and moving headlong. Hence why we are in a quarantine where quaranta is 40 in Italian. My website: http://www.astrologykrs.comHoroscope consultation- http://www.astrologykrs.com/Shop.htmlThe debate of correct ayanamsa in astrology Lahire vs. K.. By contrast, sidereal astrology uses a sidereal zodiac whose initial point is defined relative to the fixed stars. Eventually their resistances are broken down and theyre able to contain a broader, more all encompassing viewpoint. Your email address will not be published. If you didnt hear this kind of talk coming from astrologers, youd think it was coming from skeptical trolls mocking astrology. What if there was a way to project our culture onto the stars in a way that was meaningful today? Wow! In truth, neither frame of reference is truly fixed, so the real difference between them is that tropical has a regular and quicker rate of change which allows it to be stable in the long-term and permanently tied to Earths seasons, whereas the constellations have an irregular and slower rate of change which could affect where the sidereal zodiac begins in the long-term. With these people you'd noticed they're over thinkers because their mindset is to always pay close attention to details. I will definitely come back for more readings in the future. If you were a Leo born Aug 15, you are a now a cancer under the sidereal zodiac. They'd even schedule, lists and focus on organizing things. How can sidereal and tropical exist alongside each other today? I never knew about some interpretation of my natal placements but Patrick described. I really enjoyed his consultation and. I love the ship/ocean metaphor. it all depends on the story you want to have in this lifetime. A lot of the lore surrounding particular stars revolves around their position within a constellation. In the Timaeus, he gives an extensive account of his ideas about how the universe is shaped and constructed. The sidereal system is based on the current position of the constellations. The intersection of the circles of the Same and the Other shows the intersection of what is archetypally incidental and recurring. Needless to say, Patrick is a true pro at it. Thank you for this! Its been somewhat of an identity crisis for me, but I like the idea of archetypes vs incidental. Tropical astrology uses the Spring Equinox as the point when the Sun moves into the 1st degree of the sign Aries. As per Vedic astrology - Sidereal zodiac, the individual is a Leo. I started with Vedic astrology in the mid 90s. Then the cultural projection would not be arbitrary but meaningful for the era theyre formed in and for the culture they come from. So it doesnt matter if you use the sidereal or tropical zodiac because you might as well be divining the skidmarks in a toilet bowl and it would be equally valid as a divinatory tool. He has a logical approach to astrology that truly connected, and he has inspired me to learn about myself through my chart. The sun is in Virgo on or about August 23rd to September 22nd under the tropical zodiac and September 17 to October 17 under the sidereal zodiac. In Sidereal astrology, the sun currently transits the constellation of Virgo from September 16th to October 15th. I also learned how various parts of my natal chart represented things outside myself such as people, places, and things. Cancer: July 17 to August 6. Learning from Ken, we can easily see that the universe is the exact same thing as a magnet with its precession i.e., Larmor frequency. Most astrologers, even if theyre exclusively tropical or sidereal, dont want to write off the other as just wrong. Over the course of a few centuries, the tropical zodiac shifts backward relative to the sidereal zodiac, 1 degree per 72 years, while the stars in the sky (and thus the sidereal fiducial point) will be basically identical. You would be Virgo ascendant, if at the time of your birth, the sign Virgo was rising from above the ground, in a way similar to the rising of he sun. Tropical Virgo=Labora (the nocturnal place of Mercury) "Labora" means "work" and "toil". Patrick is a master at chart readings. However, to further complicate matters there are several commonly used ayanamshas that vary by nearly 2 degrees from one another. Due to precession, the zodiacal degrees move. If you are a Tropical Virgo, you are likely to be a Sidereal Leo. Many centuries before the Europeans were debating over whether the earth was flat, the Vedic rishis were figuring out exactly what effect the Earths wobble would have on the calculations of their ephemeriss! Vedic astrology today favors the emphasis of the ascendant and the Moon over the Sun as well. In order to honor their new paths, we need to set the terms of divorce, including name changes, division of assets and a custody agreement. The circle of the Other was the direction the planets traveled. On the other hand, this seems to imply that your Western chart is more grounded in practical matters on Earth, and your Vedic chart is more spiritual and ethereal. He's thorough in his explanations, knowledgeble and funny at the same time, and he doesn't leave any stone unturned when you ask specific questions. Not only does he exhibit an extraordinary depth of knowledge, skill, talent, professionalism, and passion in his craft, as well as demonstrate a notably strong capacity to pinpoint the precise timing of imperative events in peoples lives via Zodiacal Releasing & other beautiful techniques, but his approach achieves the ideal balance of kind sensitivity and 100% honesty. The Suns path also defines which stars are considered to be part of the constellational zodiac. For example, if a planet is at 11 degrees Gemini then add 7 degrees and go back to Taurus. Here's a link to calculate your Tropical Astrology Chart, and here's a link to calculate your Sidereal Astrology Chart. I have great confidence in the result of his work on my chart as it speaks to the events in my life and who I am. From this point of view, Aries is not the home of Mars because the ram is its constellational image, but rather the ram was chosen as the constellational image of Aries because it is the home of Mars and the ram embodies some qualities of Mars. Constructs of zodiacs altogether, focusing instead just on planetary geometry hobbies, do. How various parts of my ( young ) life from skeptical trolls mocking astrology distinguished they should have names... 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